Details

    • Type: Improvement
    • Status: Resolved
    • Priority: Major
    • Resolution: Applied
    • Component/s: Artefacts
    • Labels:

      Description

      Agreed at the 10/19 Atlantic call to accept this into UBL 2.4.

      Are these requirements for the existing invoice document type, or are they requirements for a new document type?

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          Hide
          wim.kok Wim Kok added a comment -

          Some comments i got, thanks to Fred Blommestein

          Operation type and Receipt type code:

          The receipt type may be used for a refined classification, such as pharmaceutical receipt, theater ticket or restaurant bill. In the examples different types are used. Shop receipt, Return, KVITTOKOPIA, Event ticket, Pro forma receipt, Train ticket, Hotel receipt, pharma receipt, Invoice

          Receipt VAT incl./excl. indicator:

          See the business rules for how the indicator is used and to assess if the UBL indicator does the job.

          Seller logo:

          A link to a logo is a way the syntax mapping may handle it, provided the logo file is hosted somewhere, e.g. by the service provider.

          Withdrawal amount:

          Change is cash: I hand over 50 Euros and get 47 Euros back. Withdrawal is slightly different: I pay 203 Euros by card and get 200 Euros in cash. But yes, they are similar.

          Tip amount:

          No, tip has to do with payment, not with charges. No VAT is involved.

          Voucher payment:

          It needs additional data elements. For example frequent flyer miles. You need to see how much you used and how much are left to spend or added.

          Show
          wim.kok Wim Kok added a comment - Some comments i got, thanks to Fred Blommestein Operation type and Receipt type code: The receipt type may be used for a refined classification, such as pharmaceutical receipt, theater ticket or restaurant bill. In the examples different types are used. Shop receipt, Return, KVITTOKOPIA, Event ticket, Pro forma receipt, Train ticket, Hotel receipt, pharma receipt, Invoice Receipt VAT incl./excl. indicator: See the business rules for how the indicator is used and to assess if the UBL indicator does the job. Seller logo: A link to a logo is a way the syntax mapping may handle it, provided the logo file is hosted somewhere, e.g. by the service provider. Withdrawal amount: Change is cash: I hand over 50 Euros and get 47 Euros back. Withdrawal is slightly different: I pay 203 Euros by card and get 200 Euros in cash. But yes, they are similar. Tip amount: No, tip has to do with payment, not with charges. No VAT is involved. Voucher payment: It needs additional data elements. For example frequent flyer miles. You need to see how much you used and how much are left to spend or added.
          Hide
          keesduvekot Kees Duvekot added a comment - - edited

          Voucher payment:

          It needs additional data elements. For example frequent flyer miles. You need to see how much you used and how much are left to spend or added.

          I disagree that this data should be in the "receipt". If I use my bank account I also don't get to see the remaining balance on my bank account, or when I use my credit card I don't see what my new limit is. This is information that can (and should) be shared separately from the receipt in my view.
          I do agree that you need to see how "much" was used from a voucher, or miles or whatever .. and that it can be expressed in something else than "amount", but that is also true for the creditcard, bankcard or any other payment means that was used to pay for the goods/services that are listed in the receipt. It should just be a 1 to N relation between receipt and "payments"

          (And don't get started on showing the amount of "Miles" you have earned because you paid with a certain credit card )

          Show
          keesduvekot Kees Duvekot added a comment - - edited Voucher payment: It needs additional data elements. For example frequent flyer miles. You need to see how much you used and how much are left to spend or added. I disagree that this data should be in the "receipt". If I use my bank account I also don't get to see the remaining balance on my bank account, or when I use my credit card I don't see what my new limit is. This is information that can (and should) be shared separately from the receipt in my view. I do agree that you need to see how "much" was used from a voucher, or miles or whatever .. and that it can be expressed in something else than "amount", but that is also true for the creditcard, bankcard or any other payment means that was used to pay for the goods/services that are listed in the receipt. It should just be a 1 to N relation between receipt and "payments" (And don't get started on showing the amount of "Miles" you have earned because you paid with a certain credit card )
          Hide
          keesduvekot Kees Duvekot added a comment -

          Tip amount:

          The TC discussed that a tip can be viewed as a type of charge. We need to validate.

          No, tip has to do with payment, not with charges. No VAT is involved

          To me a "Tip" is an "overpayment" voluntarily made on the receipt .. for which no return/refund/change is needed. It certainly is not a charge in my view. and that makes it something in relation to "change" and "Withdrawal amount". I can pay a receipt of 15 Euros .. with a payment on my credit card of 50 Euro .. but I only want 30 euro back .. so there is a 5 Euro "Tip" in there. .. so it should be in the calculation rules how to handle that. And that 30 Euros might even be paid back into my "loyalties points" program or something else than cash ... if we really want to be fancy and all encompassing.

          What you sometimes see happening in these cases .. is that the difference is cash is taken out of the register ... and deposited in the "tip jar" on the counter .. something else I could have done outside of the scope of the receipt ..

          Show
          keesduvekot Kees Duvekot added a comment - Tip amount: The TC discussed that a tip can be viewed as a type of charge. We need to validate. No, tip has to do with payment, not with charges. No VAT is involved To me a "Tip" is an "overpayment" voluntarily made on the receipt .. for which no return/refund/change is needed. It certainly is not a charge in my view. and that makes it something in relation to "change" and "Withdrawal amount". I can pay a receipt of 15 Euros .. with a payment on my credit card of 50 Euro .. but I only want 30 euro back .. so there is a 5 Euro "Tip" in there. .. so it should be in the calculation rules how to handle that. And that 30 Euros might even be paid back into my "loyalties points" program or something else than cash ... if we really want to be fancy and all encompassing. What you sometimes see happening in these cases .. is that the difference is cash is taken out of the register ... and deposited in the "tip jar" on the counter .. something else I could have done outside of the scope of the receipt ..
          Hide
          kenneth.bengtsson Kenneth Bengtsson added a comment -

          Agreed today that Kenneth will create a sample document to be used for the UBL distribution as well as for further analysis of the structure.

          Show
          kenneth.bengtsson Kenneth Bengtsson added a comment - Agreed today that Kenneth will create a sample document to be used for the UBL distribution as well as for further analysis of the structure.
          Hide
          kenneth.bengtsson Kenneth Bengtsson added a comment -

          As discussed last week: the considerations above are about whether the requirements fit into already existing UBL structures. They’re not about the validity of the underlying business requirements - they’re all valid and well-explained in the requirements document. And as promised: Attached an example instance illustrating some of the concepts.

          Some items that may require additional discussion:

          Change vs. withdrawal

          1. I buy a $80 item in a shop and pay with a $100 bill = I get $20 change.
          2. I buy a $80 item in a shop and pay $100 with my credit card = I get $20 change.

          Perhaps my bank will distinguish between the two and consider that I have made a $20 "withdrawal" in the second scenario. But I would think that from a document modelling perspective the operation is almost identical, only different payment means. Or what is different in the UBL structure?

          Vouchers:

          I agree with Kees that loyalty points, miles, etc. is not something that is proprietary to the use of a voucher. Perhaps it could be interesting to look at whether there is a general need for a sort of "loyalty points structure" in UBL documents, and whether this can be standardized or if it’s something proprietary to the individual CRM system. But again, I agree with Kees that this would be just as applicable to all other means of payment, such as card payments, cash, etc.

          I can see two principal uses or types of "vouchers":

          1. a redeemable asset that has a monetary value and that can be used as a means of payment; and
          2. a coupon or a code that entitles the customer to a discount.

          Are there any uses besides these two?

          Tips:

          I’m not sure I completely understand how VAT is an indicator for whether something is a charge or not.. The CEN requirement document itself has a business term called Document level charge amount without VAT. So I tried googling the rules and requirements from different states and countries to find out how tips are used.

          State of Minnesota has a guide called "Tips and Other Charges": Tips that are paid directly to an employee are not taxable. However, if the tips are added to the receipt, then it’s a charge and it’s taxable, even if the seller gives the tips to employee:
          https://www.revenue.state.mn.us/guide/sales-tips-and-other-charges

          State of New York: Same as Minnesota, however, it may be considered a non-taxable charge if meeting certain criteria:
          https://www.tax.ny.gov/pubs_and_bulls/tg_bulletins/st/gratuities.htm

          U.K.: Same as in the U.S., tips are considered a charge if included on the bill. Tips are always exempt from VAT:
          https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/e24-tips-gratuities-service-charges-and-troncs/guidance-on-tips-gratuities-service-charges-and-troncs

          Ireland: Tips are subject to VAT if they appear on the bill. Only exempt from VAT if paid directly to the employee and do not appear on the bill:
          https://www.revenue.ie/en/vat/vat-rates/search-vat-rates/S/service-charge-catering-food-and-drink-for-human-consumption-.aspx

          Denmark: All tips that appear on the bill and/or are paid with a credit/debit card are paid directly to the seller, who accounts for it as revenue. If seller pays to the employee, then it’s considered salary and subject to income tax, etc. Only tips that are paid directly to the employee are not considered seller’s revenue, and only if they are not charged through the bill or through any of the seller’s payment systems (sorry, link in Danish only):
          https://skat.dk/data.aspx?oid=1976777

          Denmark doesn’t have a tipping culture, but I did manage to include a tip when paying for our Sunday brunch yesterday - see attached bill. From the explanation from Danish tax administration, I understand that my tip is now reported as revenue for the restaurant and included in my receipt as a charge (which is also what it looks like on the receipt).

          Does anyone have any additional use cases, not covered by the above? And where "tips" are not a charge when included in the bill?

          Show
          kenneth.bengtsson Kenneth Bengtsson added a comment - As discussed last week: the considerations above are about whether the requirements fit into already existing UBL structures. They’re not about the validity of the underlying business requirements - they’re all valid and well-explained in the requirements document. And as promised: Attached an example instance illustrating some of the concepts. Some items that may require additional discussion: Change vs. withdrawal I buy a $80 item in a shop and pay with a $100 bill = I get $20 change. I buy a $80 item in a shop and pay $100 with my credit card = I get $20 change. Perhaps my bank will distinguish between the two and consider that I have made a $20 "withdrawal" in the second scenario. But I would think that from a document modelling perspective the operation is almost identical, only different payment means. Or what is different in the UBL structure? Vouchers: I agree with Kees that loyalty points, miles, etc. is not something that is proprietary to the use of a voucher. Perhaps it could be interesting to look at whether there is a general need for a sort of "loyalty points structure" in UBL documents, and whether this can be standardized or if it’s something proprietary to the individual CRM system. But again, I agree with Kees that this would be just as applicable to all other means of payment, such as card payments, cash, etc. I can see two principal uses or types of "vouchers": a redeemable asset that has a monetary value and that can be used as a means of payment; and a coupon or a code that entitles the customer to a discount. Are there any uses besides these two? Tips: I’m not sure I completely understand how VAT is an indicator for whether something is a charge or not.. The CEN requirement document itself has a business term called Document level charge amount without VAT . So I tried googling the rules and requirements from different states and countries to find out how tips are used. State of Minnesota has a guide called "Tips and Other Charges": Tips that are paid directly to an employee are not taxable. However, if the tips are added to the receipt, then it’s a charge and it’s taxable, even if the seller gives the tips to employee: https://www.revenue.state.mn.us/guide/sales-tips-and-other-charges State of New York: Same as Minnesota, however, it may be considered a non-taxable charge if meeting certain criteria: https://www.tax.ny.gov/pubs_and_bulls/tg_bulletins/st/gratuities.htm U.K.: Same as in the U.S., tips are considered a charge if included on the bill. Tips are always exempt from VAT: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/e24-tips-gratuities-service-charges-and-troncs/guidance-on-tips-gratuities-service-charges-and-troncs Ireland: Tips are subject to VAT if they appear on the bill. Only exempt from VAT if paid directly to the employee and do not appear on the bill: https://www.revenue.ie/en/vat/vat-rates/search-vat-rates/S/service-charge-catering-food-and-drink-for-human-consumption-.aspx Denmark: All tips that appear on the bill and/or are paid with a credit/debit card are paid directly to the seller, who accounts for it as revenue. If seller pays to the employee, then it’s considered salary and subject to income tax, etc. Only tips that are paid directly to the employee are not considered seller’s revenue, and only if they are not charged through the bill or through any of the seller’s payment systems (sorry, link in Danish only): https://skat.dk/data.aspx?oid=1976777 Denmark doesn’t have a tipping culture, but I did manage to include a tip when paying for our Sunday brunch yesterday - see attached bill. From the explanation from Danish tax administration, I understand that my tip is now reported as revenue for the restaurant and included in my receipt as a charge (which is also what it looks like on the receipt). Does anyone have any additional use cases, not covered by the above? And where "tips" are not a charge when included in the bill?

            People

            • Assignee:
              olemad@erst.dk Ole Madsen
              Reporter:
              kenneth.bengtsson Kenneth Bengtsson
            • Watchers:
              3 Start watching this issue

              Dates

              • Created:
                Updated:
                Resolved: